Madeleine Albright: Hell And Other Destinations

In 2001, when Madeleine Albright was leaving office as America’s first female secretary of state, interviewers asked her how she wished to be remembered. “I don’t want to be remembered,” she answered. “I am still here and have much more I intend to do. As difficult as it might seem, I want every stage of my life to be more exciting than the last.” So she has continued to write, teach, travel, give speeches, start a business, fight for democracy, help empower women, campaign for favored political candidates, and spend more time with her grandchildren.

For nearly 20 years, Secretary Albright has been in constant motion. Her new memoir is blunt, intimate, funny, and serious. An excellent basis for a rare, candid visit with one of America’s most memorable and revered public figures. Join us to hear Secretary Albright's outlook on the world . . . past, present and post-COVID.

NOTES
Albright black and white photo by Platon

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Subtitles and Closed Captions

Good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's Commonwealth club program with former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
I'm Gloria Duffy president and CEO of the club
I'm coming today to you today from my living room in Santa Clara, California. So we'll call this a fireside chat
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Now, it's my great pleasure to introduce today's guest Madeleine Albright's in
2001 when secretary Albright was leaving office as America's first female Secretary of State
Interviewers asked her how she wished to be remembered. I
Don't want to be remembered. She answered. I am still here and have much more I intend to do
I want every stage of my life to be more exciting than the last and
So it has been
Secretary Albright has continued to write teach travel give speeches start a business fight for democracy help empower women
Campaign for political candidates as well as spend more time with her grandchildren her
new memoir entitled hell and other destinations
written of course before the kovat pandemic
Displays her unparalleled wit as well as her profound insights into public events past and present
Today, we'll explore the challenges of our current predicament as well as here
Albright's outlook on history and the post kovat world. So good afternoon secretary Albright
Welcome to this fireside chat. I'm delighted to be with you. Thank you very much. Love being in San Francisco area
no matter where and how
virtually, or otherwise we hope to have you back again soon in person now and
Tell us where are you joining from us from today?
Well, I'm joining from my house in Washington and Georgetown where I've lived since 1968
And this is my working study as you can tell because it's messy
And I have not been out except kind of to do laps around my garden for the last six weeks
I'm not having
much success because I'm an extrovert and I'm trying to learn to be an introvert and I'm not doing very well at that but
I've been busy and I'm delighted to have the opportunity to talk about my my new book
part of my virtual book tour and
I assume you've been participating in zoom of
Events and conversations and other activities. How are you finding that are you adapting to it is your
Extroverted self being satisfied by some of that work
Well, actually I've done a lot of it and I've enjoyed it
But it doesn't work in terms of the extroverted thing
Because you actually see people but you don't get the vibes
I think one needs to have the vibes, but I've been I finished teaching at Georgetown the semester
Overs. Ooh
We even did a game simulation with my students who were just did a great job and I've done a lot of different meetings
So I have done more zooming than I ever thought I would
And and it's fun
but it's also I think you've seen it's quite tiring because you have to concentrate on it and
And you don't get the vibes frankly
Yes, I'm finding that the day goes from 5 or 6 a.m. Until 11 p.m. Without a break when working at home
So I know it's a day early, but happy birthday
Well, thank you very much. Thank you this kind of a weird way to spend it, but
I
Think I'll tell you what, I'm finding more difficult than I thought
a lot of the book is
to kind of prove that I'm not old as you pointed out at the beginning and all of a sudden as a result of the
Virus and I mean all of a sudden I have to be identified as elderly
Which is was not my idea that I I've been trying to fight gravity. So
It makes the birthday kind of more poignant if I may say so
Well as a treasure in our country, I'm glad that you are sheltering carefully and safely
Even if it means being identified as in a protected class
So
the pin of the day
What is it? And what's the significance?
and it's interesting because
I had a different pin that I thought I was going to wear through this whole book tour, which was a demo
and
Because things have changed when I chose the title
it actually had a lot to do with the most famous thing I ever said which was
there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other but given what's going on and now
The head I didn't focus on how germane the title was going to be in my book
I do talk about the fact that I spent world war two in London with my parents all through the Blitz and
my father was a Czechoslovak diplomat who went to work for the government in exile and his job was
To talk over BBC and so I would listen to BBC
I was a little girl and I'll never forget that the BBC broadcasts always began with a kettledrum that
Played the first five notes of Beethoven's fifth Durham, which is Morse code for victory
And so I thought that it made sense to wear the V pin
for victory
that's how apropos I
There are people now
Planting Covent Gardens instead of Victory Gardens and that theme I think is very important in our society right now
I
recall and you mentioned in the very early part of your book that your codename was when a secretary of state was Pathfinder and
We certainly need some help finding our path in this current situation
Well, there's an awful lot that is hard to figure out because it really is quite different
In terms of the things that we all have dealt with them. I
thought when I was Secretary of State, I was the last Secretary of State of the 20th century in the 1st of the 21st and
President Clinton was always building bridges to the 21st century
And I think that we thought it was going to kind of be an extra-large 20th century in terms of our various
Relationships and the international organizations and how we operated and I think now we do have to find a path through
Something that is quite different. I think that we're going to have to figure out
all those
Cliche terms the new normal or whatever, but I do think the things will be different
Can you say a little bit more about in what ways and what directions will they be different? Well, I think that
there are several aspects that are going on I've often talked about
Megatrends and their downside. So what we've been living is through as a Megan and is globalization
We've all benefited from it to some form or another I think
But it does have a downside it's faceless and so people
Don't know what their identity is and we've had an awful lot of people thinking they want to know who they are
They don't want to be part of some faceless organization
And I think it's great to want to know what your identity is
But if my identity hates your identity
It becomes very dangerous and nationalism and hyper nationalism
and that's something that we're dealing with another mega trend is that
Technology which again we've all benefited and I always love to talk about the Kenyan woman
Farmer who no longer has to walk miles to pay her bills
Because she can use her mobile phone and she can have a life
Either with her family or starting a business or running four off. That's the positive the negative part is that
every all opinion is
Disaggregated everybody gets their news or their opinions from an echo chamber and it's very hard to tell
What is going on? And those are the things that we have to deal with now?
so for instance, the virus knows no borders and yet all of a sudden we're into borders and
Nationalism when the only way that is going to be solved is by
Dealing together and trying to solve the problem and understanding
that
You know, the people are talking
Disconnecting I don't think we can disconnect
if
We're going to be able to operate in the 21st century. And we also need to understand technology better its pros and cons
So those are the aspects and which meat leads me to think that I think our greatest. Hope are the young people who actually
know how to operate in the technological world and who have a
exciting view of the future even though I think it is a little iffy at the moment for them as I
Talked about my grandchildren and I have three I've six grandchildren and three of them are in college
And I know how much they were looking forward to being in college. And so it's a little disquieting. I think for everybody. I
want to come back to that question of the interrupted education, but first, I want to talk a little bit about
How why we didn't know or respond to predictions of
A pandemic and weren't prepared
So as you know
There's a brain trust in this country and internationally
You've talked in your book about the many policy studies and groups you've been involved with
the Atlantic Council and various other groups and
There were a number of groups in recent years that pulled experts together to think about
Emerging diseases and how they could possibly create a pandemic and what preparedness
We needed to do there was a World Health
Organization
panel report on this just last September a warning that we needed to engage in vaccine development and
Develop, you know better fund our public health agencies and so on you've seen a lot of policy studies
You've seen their ability to impact
Government and policy what was going on this time? And why haven't we been able to pay attention?
And what makes a policy study have impact and enable us to do better
well, I do think that what by the way when I teach at Georgetown
I teach a course about decision making
and I try not to brainwash my students and I
explain that we're in old country and we'd made decisions for a long time and there is a process and
And I think that what happened and and the world doesn't come in four year segments according to our election
And I think there was already
a
Disliked by the Trump administration of coming in after Obama there had been in a been an unpleasant
Campaign. There was already a lot of criticism one of the things
That I have found most interesting about our decision-making process is what's known as the transition
And the transition is a period from the November election to January 21st
The inauguration and I have been transitioned into and I've done the transitioning the latter is more fun
but it is a
absolutely crucial time because it is a time where
Disagreements are kind of set aside because the crown jewels are being transferred. And from what I've heard
It was a very incomplete and unpleasant transition and there was not that kind of turning things over
I do know that the Obama administration did in fact have a plan
And why it was disregarded because they had gone through some difficult times with Ebola
And trying to figure out how to deal with with a pandemic and there were warnings about a pandemic
So I think the hard part is and they're awful lot of stories now trying to figure out why all that was ignored
And why people that had worked on that were asked to leave one of the interesting parts again from the government often?
there are people who stay from one administration to another because they are the professionals and are not viewed as being
To use the term partisan on this so I think that some very big mistakes were made
I do think the Chinese have something to answer for
In terms of what they did or didn't do I do think also
that one has to know more about what the w-h-o did or didn't do but as far as I'm concerned there was kind of a
blindness from the incoming administration
to this and then denial and I think it's really is a problem and we are all paying for it now, so
For leaving aside who wins the election
Partisanship, etc
it just sounds like we need a better transition process the next time and to make sure that
all the current issues current views are
incorporated and understood by the team coming in and I think that's something for
Everyone interested in public policy to pay attention to it's sort of a little-known process people understand the political
Process the elections etc. But there is a time there between November and January
That's crucial. And now on China. What do you think the Chinese have to answer for?
Well, I think that
they
Well, we don't know exactly what happened but but the bottom line is from what I have read
they punished the people that talked about what was going on in Wuhan they
Did not do what they could have been should have in terms of limiting
travel and a variety of
You know trying to figure it out and they did not and and again
I I don't know all the facts so I know is you know what I've read
And I think are the Trump administration has made it even more confusing
By changing their mind every other day about what they knew and when they knew it
But I think the Chinese that does need to be investigated
But what we most have to figure out now is how to move forward on this
And there are whole questions about whether we should
break relations with China disconnect
And not work with them anymore
I hope that doesn't happen because just visualize if the Chinese were the ones to find a vaccine would we say?
No, we don't want it
And so there have to be issues that are rectified and my own sense about working with China
I can't tell you how many meetings you were talking about task forces and meetings that I've done how many have to do with China?
You know the rising power and how do we deal with it? And and I think that
the art of diplomacy and statecraft is being able to have
relationships with even those we disagree with
Try to figure out where we can cooperate and compete where we have to
And not decide that we're not going to having to do with them. We know the issues of our supply chains
And the fact also that the Chinese as the US has been withdrawing from the world scene
The Chinese are filling the vacuum
So I think it is counterproductive to decide that we are not going to deal with them. We need to figure out
Where we cooperate and where we compete
There are a lot of aspects of global cooperation in this current situation
I mean the Chinese did share the genetic code for the viruses and so on and there have been
Exchange of data and other cooperation. Some people are seeing this as a model for other difficult areas non-proliferation
Terrorism human rights, etc
Do you see positive aspects of the cooperation that the pandemic has forced and how they might enable?
Progress in other areas. Well, I do think first of all that the virus knows no borders
And then also are issues. You don't have to be a genius to know that there's certain issues that require
international cooperation
nuclear proliferation
climate change
various health policies and
aspects of
the movement of people's and it just requires cooperate and
And I think I hope that that is something that is followed in a variety of ways
It doesn't mean we have to agree about everything I can tell you. It's very interesting to be a diplomat because you go to
any country and
if you are a secretary of state that actually
works with the people in the State Department and is
briefed and prepared for meetings
You have an objective in going to the country and you have a set of things that you want to talk about now
You start out always in a very friendly way
and you try to find the things you agree on and then I had a trick I
Would say I have come a long way so I must be frank
and then I would talk about the human rights situation or
What was going on in Tibet? And then the Chinese Foreign Minister we're talking about Taiwan, but the bottom line is that
Diplomacy is the language that you need to be able to talk to those with whom you agree and disagree?
so I think that the next phase again if you look at the
Trans-border aspect of the problems we have to deal with the Chinese
and I think then I would prefer to deal with them often within a larger setting so that
Whether they can work with us at the United Nations or to be more part of some of the issues that are happening
In Asia, I am troubled by what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea they are
threatening navigational rights, and I'm very worried about an accident in terms of some ship of
Chinese ship hitting a
Fisherman fishing boat or something and whether we have lines that are open that can deal with these kinds of issues
It would be very dangerous
If we had a cold war with the Chinese
Coming back to the u.s. Situation for a second you have
experienced government in every way you're a real authority on the way the US government works a
number of people including Margaret Hamburg Harvey Fineberg have called for a
single
Point of you know control or contact for the pandemic
management in the US government a pandemic czar if you will well and they've mentioned people like former secretaries of
HHS former
Members of Congress even ash Carter was mentioned once what do you think of this idea?
Do we need a national czar or coordinator?
Other than the vice president to deal with the pandemic crisis in this country. I think it would be very useful because
There's accountability and responsibility. But if there is such a person as our or czarina
That it would be an understanding that it takes a lot of parts of the US government to be a part of this obviously
Health and Human Services, but it is a national security issue
It is a commercial issue
And so if the person is empowered to be the one that gathers the people
In the White House in order to follow this very carefully
then I think that's important the other part about our government and I feel strongly about this is
What makes it so interesting for me the most interesting part of our government our executive legislative relations?
And so there has to be a way that the White House deals with respect with members of Congress
I've been on both ends of this
I worked on Capitol Hill for Senator muskie and then I came and worked in the Carter White House doing congressional relations
So it was interesting to see how things went back and forth
but I do think that it's important to be able to have that relationship and then obviously also a
judicial branch and so
The interaction of our government is important and understanding the Constitution
So and those are the things that seem to be missed the moment, by the way
The course I teach I say foreign policy is just trying to get some come to do what you want. That's all it is
So what are the tools and my course is called the national security toolbox and we are the most powerful country in the world
But they're not a lot of tools
but all the tools in order to really work need to be activated and worked on with the Congress and
so that if there is a
Czars arena that is an important part and then the really hard part especially in this administration
Is somebody who can go into the president and say these are the facts?
And if you want to make sure that people aren't dying
These are the facts and believe me. It is not easy to go into the Oval Office and talk to the president
There's so much history in the Oval Office. I had a lot of you know, I would go in and read President Clinton and
Sometimes I'd get irritated because he'd be doing a crossword puzzle as I was talking to him
but he had the
Capability having done a lot of reading about what we are about to do and what foreign leader we were gonna see
So he always had been listening and asked the right questions
But it's not simple to go in there and tell the President of the United States. You've got these facts wrong
You mentioned at the beginning
what's lost when we're operating remotely and
The way that government operates and really any organization a lot happens outside of formal meetings
Chatting in the hallway at the proverbial water cooler the walk in the woods in
International meetings and so on. What do you think is lost and how long can we go on in a mode where we're not?
Meeting face-to-face. I
Think a lot is lost by the way, and in those personal relations is interesting
I was just at we couldn't have a hearing on this on Capitol Hill
Because it was moat and so I did a briefing with the House Foreign Affairs Committee last week
on democracy and authoritarianism
It was interesting to the extent. I mean, there are a lot of people that I know from very parts of my life
And there it's possible to kind of have a less formal
Interaction, but it's different than if you're kind of walking down the hall or you come and see them. I do think that
I'm troubled by what the long-term effect of this kind of sequestration
You know takes place but I think if it takes a lot longer we will develop other ways of
Trying to figure out how to have the relationships
Social distancing doesn't mean a you know personal distancing in terms of relationships
You can always pick up the phone
So I was going to ask you about how the government is working in this
Period and you've talked about doing a remote briefing for a house committee
Have you do you have any other sense of how government is operating right now?
well, I think
not at the best I have to say because
It's very so much of government is based on
Trying to see the other person's side and to look at compromise and at the moment what troubles me?
Very deeply about the current
Way the atmosphere is that there is a premium on
Putting down your opponent and not really listening to what he or she has to say
When you actually can learn something from people with whom you disagree and so I don't think things are going very well. I
do think it's kind of a
Zero-sum instead of trying to figure out how to find some kind of a compromise
So I am worried about this going on on the other hand
I think we have to be aware of the fact that as a result of the things that we started
Talking about why it took so long and what the issues were we do have to worry about the number of people
that are dying and that in fact the health of the country the health of our people is
something that is obviously
Of paramount importance which goes back to science and facts and and what the policies are
so
the subject on which you testified which is
democracy and
Authoritarianism was the topic of your book
fascism a warning which was a very striking book and
Caused a lot of people to pay attention and think about that subject. That is the rise of
authoritarianism or even totalitarianism
globally
What did you say in your testimony? And how do you think things are going? Do you see that trend continuing to deepen worldwide?
Well, I do and it goes back to the when I was talking about
Trends and their downside. I think what we're seeing
Is that the rise of this hyper nationalism does create divisions and just to go back?
When I decided to write my book on fascism, I went to see the origin of it and it started with Mussolini
in Italy after World War one
where the Italians felt that they had not their role in world war one when they fought with the Allies was not
Respected there were economic problems
Mussolini was somebody that was an outsider who came in who was a very good speaker could motivate people
And what happened? Was he began to identify with one group of people at the expense of another?
And then Hitler picked that up and went way beyond anything in terms of not only
dividing society but blaming the group that he didn't like of being
the problem the whole problem
In terms of its scapegoat for everything now the best quote in that book came from Mussolini
Which it he said if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time nobody notices
And so I've been saying there's a lot of feather plucking going on right now
and by the way, you can't say those two words too quickly together, but really
Very worrisome in terms of steps and we've seen it in Europe what I did in that book and I've
talked about a little bit more in this new one is
Happen in Europe, so can you find somebody like Viktor Orban in Hungary? Whom I actually met in the 80s
When he was everybody's favorite dissident and by the way, he's been attacking George Soros George Soros paid for his education
At Oxford so and anyway, he has taken advantage of some of the problems in Hungary
the fact that
immigrants have come in and and also
the virus in order all of a sudden to
Have what? He calls in a liberal democracy if there ever was an oxymoron is putting two words like that together
The poles are doing things like that. Also. I'm very worried about what's happened in Turkey or in the Philippines
and so there are those leaders that are taking advantage of
The fact that there are problems to divide the people even more and and I am worried that some of that
There is an attempt to divide our society and and I think what I did in
In the fascism of fascism is not an ideology
It's a process for gaining power and it's when you have a leader who thinks he's above the law
Where the freedom of the press a free press is the basis of democracy?
And if all of a sudden the press is seen as the enemy of the people
That is a terrible aspect of it. And then the scapegoating part
So I am what which is why I wrote the book of warning because one has to be careful about
the divisions that have taken place
so
we in this country are accepting a lot more government authority at the moment and
Glad of it in many cases and we're providing information
Ranging from our location to our body temperature, etc
what do you think of this in terms of the
Trends in the u.s. The ability to preserve civil rights democracy, etc
Is this troubling at all? Well, I have to say so I am gonna sound like professor Albright here, but basically
there the way that not societies were created was with a social contract and
basically people gave up some of their individual rights to a government that then had the responsibility of
Providing a series of social services and worrying about the people and in exchange the people
Were good citizens and voted and were interested in what was going on
I have been troubled that the social contract
Has been breaking down and some of it does have to do with technology and the loss of jobs and a variety of things
That were going on at the beginning of the century and the fear factor about terrorists and any number of different
Aspects what is interesting and you already stated it is in order to deal with the pandemic
The central government does have to have some power
That if every and we particularly have an interesting Constitution with the powers of the states
but there are certain things that the federal government needs to be responsible for and
The loss of some of
Democracy, there is something that I think is necessary on the other hand. There has to be a method
For the voice of the people to be heard and we are about to be able to be heard in our elections
And I think that democracy is not a spectator sport and I think that we have to understand how the electoral system
works here how important it is to have access
To the voting system the states run a lot of it and it makes it necessary for everybody to understand how the political
System operates and our role in it, but you do need we've been criticizing the central government for not having had a supply
Ventilators or masks and there have been a lot of questions about where they come from
So I think our system in many ways needs work, but not by people that want to destroy the system
In order to create some kind of weird Society
But in fact one that mends some of the problems and recognizes the importance of that social contract
so while we're sheltering we should be paying even more attention to our
governmental bodies how they're working and our vote to vote and
Voting should be made as accessible as possible. I think I agree with you
There's a special need at this time to pay attention to the lovers of our democracy
Let's talk about students you've finished the semester
teaching via zoom
I'm on the board of my undergraduate college. So we talk about this all the time. Will there be a fall semester?
What are students missing?
By not being able to physically be present
What do you think the impact will be will this be a shaping experience for the college and graduate school aged population?
What will they take away from this how will this impact their lives?
Well, they will never forget this. There's no question, especially
seniors who are missing their graduation or those that were prepared to step into jobs that
Either don't exist or it have to be done virtually and so they are on the front lines of this in many different ways
What I found interesting with my students and I do teach this
Decision-making course and one of the things that's been their favorite thing has been a roleplay simulation
Which I have done in the past
over a weekend and it's very
Something that is intensive I have I asked them to prepare like six weeks ahead of time
There's some people who play
Than are the main decision-making body of the National Security Council the principal's committee
then I have a group that played the United Nations Security Council and then I have foreigners that are
Representing whatever country we're dealing with. So what had they had prepared to do was about Venezuela
And I always create some crisis towards the end that they have to deal with it
they weren't prepared for so what I did was to say that an American ship was captured by the
Venezuelans and it was a ship that was delivering humanitarian assistance and all of this was done remotely
And they - and again, it's a cliche
They manage take a crisis and turn it into an opportunity and they figured out how to deal with the ship issue
But then they began to look at what were the relationships in Venezuela?
how did they relate to the Colombians and the Cubans and the refugees and so
they made the best of it and I think in many ways the students that generation is
most prepared of anybody to deal with technology
the truth is we've been criticizing them for being online all the time and not
Being social enough or not understanding privacy in many ways. They are more prepared for this
And so, you know, I'm often asked if I'm an optimist or a pessimist
I'm an optimist who worries a lot, but I'm an optimist because of that generation
And so I do think they're in a hard spot
I think as of right now most of them don't know if there's going to be school in the fall
And they have to try to figure it out
I think it's a it's and I have I have six grandchildren three of whom are college age
And I know they loved being in college just because it's more than just going to class and they they know they're missing
Something but I also think that in many ways they can be the ones that will with our help lead us out of this
so let's go to the title of your book for a second the
there's a special place in hell and this is a tough question because as you know,
there's a
An accusation about Joe Biden at this point with regard to his behavior towards a former Senate aide
How do you react to this situation?
where we may
Need a change in our leadership
But there is this this concern
well, I do think that one of the issues is that
I believe that when women make accusations we need to believe them and let them speak out
But I also do think that there needs to be a way of figuring out what is true and not true
I happen to know I've known Joe Biden for a very long time from the time that he was a senator
I think he is somebody I happen to think that
I believe him I do think it's very good that he's decided that he wants to have a woman vice president
which I think by the way, I
back in all the various things I've done I
When Walter Mondale chose Geraldine Ferraro to be his vice presidential candidate was the first time and I was her
Foreign policy advisors so we spent a lot of time with each other
and and this is where some of my statements about women come from that were so hard on each other very
judgmental
and and we sometimes project our sense of inadequacy on another woman and I remember traveling with her and a
Woman came up and said, how can she deal with the Russian? I can't deal with the Russian
Well, nobody was asking that woman to do that. And and I think that we're not supportive enough of each other
So it does mean listening to those feel that they have been sexually harassed or misunderstood
but I think it's also very important to
Figure out what the truth really is and to make judgments about what you know about the people involved. I
Apologized when I seemed to look at my lap
I have the questions coming in from the audience on an iPad and I'm going to ask a few of those now
One person wants to know say thank you for being a positive role model for young women. What's your advice for young women today?
well, I
I think the following thing which is that
first of all, we need to I need
To know the following thing that women do have to work harder than men. There's no question
This is going to irritate some of the men that are listening. There's plenty of room in the world for mediocre men
There's no room for mediocre women and women have to work very hard. I also think that it is very important
To know you're not going to be able to play your whole life out
Ahead of time. I think you need to know what
Makes you would make you a useful member of society. What are you interested in?
Are you somebody that will work hard that will be dependable?
That will know how to do something that women have to do is to multitask
and to understand that you are better off if there's more than one woman in the room, but I think the main thing is to
Understand that it's very hard to plan your whole life out if anybody had told me
How my life developed I would have said no way. I mean, I was somebody that went to a women's college
I wanted to be a journalist and I
Worked on a small paper while my husband was in the army and then we moved back to Chicago where he worked on a newspaper
And we're sitting with his managing editor and he looks at me he says so what are you gonna do, honey?
And I said, I'm gonna work on a newspaper and he said I don't think so
You can't work on the same paper as your husband and even though there were three other papers in Chicago at the time
And he said and you wouldn't want to compete with your husband. So go find something else to do
What I can tell you and I won't go through the whole story. I found something in my papers that I wrote. I
had twins early and I
wanted to go back to school and I and I
Wrote this little essay that said I can't believe it. I'm obsolete. I don't know what I'm going to do
and so
And it all turned out somewhat differently
But I really do think we need to take advantage of the fact that our life comes in segments due to biology
and to be able to
Do what?
I mean for me I always wanted to do something as you quoted in the beginning something
interesting and to have a curiosity and and to give it my all and
To be dependable and then also not think that certain things were beneath me when I was a staffer
I made a lot of coffee in Xerox tan
And I know that when I was made Secretary of State, by the way when my name came up to be Secretary of State
Somebody said well a woman can't be Secretary of State because Arab leaders won't deal with a woman
Well that went away and what it turned out
I had less trouble with foreign leaders because they knew that I
Represented the United States than I did with the men in our own government
who knew me too long as a
Staffer or somebody who cooked I'd had them over for dinner or you know
And they thought how did she get to be Secretary of State?
So the main thing that I think is women there's no point in being angry
The point is to do work and recognize that you have to work harder
and that and you have to speak up and
Finally, my mantra is in meetings. You have to interrupt
Because if you raise your hand then by the time they get to you
what you're going to say is not germane and that there's not a woman that I've ever talked to who
Hasn't had this feeling of you want to say something in a meeting and you think well
I won't say it cuz it'll sound stupid and then some man says it and everybody thinks it's brilliant and you're mad at yourself
so I invented the idea that
Made it up active listening
if you're listening to in order to interrupt
You have to know what you're gonna say and you have to have a strong voice and do it and when I went to teaching
I told my students because I co ed classes. Nobody could raise their hands
everybody had to interrupt my classes were a bit of a zoo, but I do think that it's very important to
Know what you're gonna say and it's much better if there's another woman in the room to support what you said. I
Think actually the American diplomacy has played a good role
in certain periods by sending women into areas of the world where women don't hold as
high-level or responsible positions and then the country
That we're dealing with has to deal with us with women and it essentially shows that
it forces the issue and it shows that women have to be dealt with and perhaps should have
More high-level positions in those countries as well
By the way, you know
What's interesting since we started talking about the pandemic there the countries that are run by women?
Currently have done better dealing with the pandemic
in Ceylon and Germany and
Then Denmark and Norway and
Iceland
Taiwan very interesting and
bodies that women have I think in terms of month being able to multitask
Because we have peripheral vision
Knowing that it is better to take care of people and that you don't want your children
Pitted against each other you want people to work together?
It's kind of interesting to think about the fact and and by the way the u.s
Also always wants to be number one and everything
There are countries that have had women presidents and prime ministers and we're the ones that are kind of behind you loose
So sounds like a great topic for a paper
At the graduate level or or some research on how women lead countries have done
so
You told a number of personal stories in your book. In fact in some ways
It could be called Madeleine Albright uncensored because there are a number of wonderful stories there
For instance the requirement for women to be photographed at Wellesley
I don't know if you want to repeat any of these but again
tremendously witty and and
Observant in pointing out some of these experiences
Well, the thing that happened at Wellesley when we got there we all had to have our posture pictures taken and
You know that you weren't fully dressed for that
and if you didn't have a good posture you had to have
Classes and exercise and we all kind of wondered what had ever happened to the posture pictures
Until we found out that they were in default at Yale. So
it was a little bit embarrassing but I have some really crazy stories and some of the
that are fun in terms of
how I had
People not have a clue who I am and think that I'm somebody else
And on an airplane and this is a story where I was flying on a plane
That was very fancy and had a bar and just as I'd just in front of the bathroom
So I'm going to the bathroom and all of a sudden there
are these men there who are saying kind of looking at me and one kneels down and he says
can you bless me and ice and
And he said please bless me and he put his head right so that I could bless him
I then figured out he thought I was Mother Teresa
And so I didn't go to the bathroom that way anymore or somebody who thought I was Margaret Thatcher
And I said, I'm not and this man said yes you are and I said, I'm sorry
I'm not and he said if you don't want to tell me you're Margaret Thatcher, that's fine
But I know you are or my very best moment at Heathrow Airport, which many people have gone through and is pretty tough
I am the one that's picked out in order to
Take everything out of my suitcase and I'm on the floor and people are waiting him and I never do this
But I finally said excuse me, but do you know who I am and the guy doing this said no
But we have a doctor who can help you figure it out
Whisper not to laugh. So I've had a lot of funny stories
Also some very poignant stories
about finding the letter from or the diary from your grandmother and I
Which you actually include some of as an appendix in your book. Could you tell us that story?
Yes, and I'll tell you it's it takes a little while. What happened was that?
I didn't know by the way
I was raised a Catholic married an Episcopalian and found that I was Jewish so I can have my own spiritual discussions
and
One of the things was that
What happened was we spent the war in England?
Then we went back to Czechoslovakia
And I had I was two when we left and so well, I've had seen pictures of myself with my grandmother. I
ever remember having real contact
And and when we got back, there was no family in Czechoslovakia
And we came to the United States is very much of a nuclear family
so what happened was my father died and he had a lot of different papers and things and when my mother
moved to Washington
She brought everything with her and when she died all of a sudden everything ended up in my garage
And I was trying to figure out what all these things were and then what happened was I go into a public
Life and I have security
and they kind of move into my house at my house and garage and they said we've got to get
rid of these boxes you've got to put them somewhere so I found a
storage place and we put everything there and then
something came up in terms of my papers gently and my father had been
Working on a book and I thought I should go at least look at stuff and as I'm there I find
And amidst all these papers an envelope when all been manila envelope and when I open it
there's a diary in it and I start looking at it and it was written in Czech and it was
letters it was done in the form of letters to my mother from her mother and it kind of
Blew there's no way to describe it in terms of how I felt about it
And and then I felt I you know, my mother had never talked about it
And how she must have felt and how she even got it at a certain stage
I think I I can track it a little bit more now
but it was a diary that began in 1942 and it doesn't have a lot in it in terms of
because she describes her life in this little town where she lived and a lot of it was very
mundane in terms of her daily activities of
Going shopping or washing her hair?
and she'd always say and how his little mud linka and very, you know,
We miss her and and then she said in one
In all of a sudden people are talking about Aryans and non-aryans
she said she'd never heard that term before or that there were places that Jews were not able to shop or
that all of a sudden there was an order that people had to give their warm clothes to the Nazi soldiers and they
Kind of blew my mind the whole thing, and I thought of it as kind of a message in a bottle
that
Was a message from the past
with some very deep insights and and a sense of hope about seeing each other all again and
And I'm very glad I found it
But it was not easy to kind of go through and and recognize the suffering
That my relatives have gone through either
When I found out about being Jewish
I was just as I was starting to be Secretary of State and I couldn't go and put the story together
so my brother and sister went to
Czechoslovakia at the time and
Began to put the story together
And then we've done more research and it turns out the 26 members of my family died in concentration
Camps and so two summers ago now three summers ago. I took my children and grandchildren
To Prague and then to Terezin in order to show them
What was our past?
And you were able to put a plaque there I think in the village
Yeah, I know in Terezin stott, which is one of the most disc all concentration camps are disgusting
But this was portrayed as a spa
that
they thought that
Check was check Jews would want to go to and it was kind of a villagey place
And they did have an orchestra and a variety of things, but then they shipped people off to other
Concentration camps and they also did have some terrible things that happen to Terezin itself
I'm so sorry
That must have been a difficult experience to go through the discovery and finding out what happened
But I'm glad I found the diary I really and that's the message in the bottle part about it
so
The single most important thing you feel that you've done since leaving office
Well, I think
There is not one single thing because the purpose of writing this book
in many ways was showing how the things I do go together and how
one thing informs another
And I've talked about teaching I love doing that but I love doing things that have to do with democracy
I was recently at a dinner and I was asked to describe myself in six words, and I said a worried optimist a
problem-solver and a grateful American and they go together and and I think
The motivating factor of my life whether I knew it or not because you asked that earlier is to pay back
I am a grateful American
And my as I've said large numbers of my family died
my father
We left Czechoslovakia a second time when the Communists took over and I kind of wonder what it would have been like had he not
managed to get us out of there and so coming to America has been the dispositive aspect of my life and and
So and the things that I do kind of come from that and the amount of time I spend on
democracy through the National Democratic Institute and
Understanding that in order to make a difference in a country
We need to work on helping them on a political system and an economic system because democracy has to deliver
People want to vote and eat and try to figure out how to operate
And even this was before the pandemic and how not to let nationalism
morph into
Fascism and
Hatred even more so that's my main thing. And by the way, I always love to talk about this, which is that
my favorite activities is to give
Naturalization certificates in ceremonies and the first time I did it was July 4th
2000 at Monticello
I figured since I had Thomas Jefferson's job. I could actually do that
and so I am giving this man his
naturalization certificate and he walks away and I hear him say can you believe I'm a refugee and I just got my
Naturalization certificate from the Secretary of State and I go up to him and I say can you believe that a refugee is?
Secretary of State and so I am grateful and I now am concerned about the fact that the Statue of Liberty is weeping
given some of our policies when most of the people in this country came in some form or another from some other country that
Leads us to another audience question, which is if you disagree with American foreign policy
Positions, how can a citizen best try to affect the outcome?
Well, I think that first of all
by understanding
what the policy is about where it comes from and then I
Think being vocal about what you disagree with and then take steps
That would lead to a change
And I think it's from my perspective. I think it's
Sometimes good to be an individual voice
But it's good to find people that you can work with to to
Make your point-of-view clear
but the main thing is to vote that is the process and and and I'm and I think now that
there's all the influence of hacking and
And a variety of aspects of the social media and lack of a way
To make sure that things work
It's the numbers that are going to make the difference in terms of making sure that the the voice is the vote
but it also requires and I feel very strongly about this that
one has to call out what one sees if
People think they're above the law I think also and and this is not always easy
I had my to-do list when I was talking about my fascism book was to talk to people with whom you disagree
I decided that I don't like the word tolerance. That's to put up with tolerate
I think we need to respect other people's views and try to figure out
Where they're coming from and then have a discussion about can you?
Find some way to work together and then I really do think seeing what how to work with the next generation
But I think some of us that are
not as adept at
the new
Technology need to work with the younger
Generation and need to figure out how to make sure that we know what's going on and to question
I don't happen to
I'm not big on violent demonstrations
but I do think that it's very important to speak out and to try to find a way in a
democratic way to get your views across and tell the truth
So I've been thinking once we are able to be around other people again
There are greetings that we do and in the u.s
A handshake is the typical greeting different cultures around the world greet each other in different ways
What are you thinking? How are you? Thinking you're going to be greeting people once sheltering is over. I am a hugger
And and one of the things by the way, you'll get a laugh out of this. I
invented the art of
Diplomatic kissing so what happened when I came in you can't visualize
Former secretaries doing this of going to a country and him, you know having an embrace. So more complicated than meets the eye
because in Latin America some people kiss on the right cheek and some on the left cheek and
Two or three times and then bump noses and then the French kiss twice and the Dutch kiss three times
and then there was yes, sir are if I have just the thought of it, right so
Anyway, I did
there were in fact embraces and
And I and I don't know how it's gonna work. I've tried even before we were all sequestered to do the elbow bum
but I think we are going to have to figure out some other way to
to make clear our
Respect for the people that were meeting. I think the Japanese bow is good
Anything I haven't asked you that you would like to say to our audience
Well, I think that first of all thank you for all the questions and from the audience questions
I think we are in a very peculiar time and it's going to be very important for us
To try to sort out what we do think and not necessarily to agree on everything but to understand that
Democracy is fragile
And at the same time it's resilience. And I think we have to think about how to use the resilience
The optimism and the desire to work together
and that
There's no one individual that can solve problems. I think that we have to
work together
And it's not going to be easy. But the worst part I think is if people decide that there's nothing to be done
I am NOT passive and one has to be active and activist on behalf of causes that are
Ones that open up society and respect
Each other but it's not it not simple and I think the hard part
At the moment is this is all lasting longer than we thought I think we all kind of figured that at some stage
you
know this would be over fairly quickly and
Patience is not my virtue. And so I think we have to sort out
How we proceed through this?
And what is the appropriate behavior for people that are proud of living in a democracy?
So
thank you for the passion expertise and good humor with which you've done all that you've done you've contributed so much over the
decades
in your book you talk about
Madeline's clubs all the various groups you
Belong to and have assembled
from the Aspen Institute Brookings counts CFR
Carnegie Endowment your various working groups your company and so on in a slightly different way
We are very happy to be the Commonwealth Club to be one of your clubs
We are very much your fans and had the great honor of honoring you with our distinguished Citizen Award last year
We miss seeing you in person
But we're so grateful to you for joining us from Washington today for this Commonwealth Club program
Stay well the shelter successfully
I hope
there's some diversion to
Alleviate the isolation there. And again, thank you so much secretary Albright
Well, thank you for inviting me and I've always felt very welcome
And anytime you want me I'm there. And and I think it's a great club in a great city and
and I think it's wonderful and I am always delighted to be invited and to have a
Good conversation. Thank you very much. We'll ask you frequently
We want to remind everyone watching that you can get a copy of secretary Albright's book
Unfortunately, not physically at the Commonwealth Club today
It's called hell and other destinations, but you can get it at your local bookstore or by visiting Barnes and noble.com
This program has been part of the club's good lit series, which is underwritten by the Bernard Osher foundation
we're thankful to all of our viewers online as
I noted earlier the club will continue to provide live stream programming in the days ahead
Please visit us regularly at Commonwealth Club org to learn more or to donate
I'm Gloria Duffy. Now this online program of the Commonwealth Club is adjourned. Thank
You thank you so much

Transcript

Good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's Commonwealth club program with former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright I'm Gloria Duffy president and CEO of the club I'm coming today to you today from my living room in Santa Clara, California. So we'll call this a fireside chat The club closed down physically on March 6th and during the cupboard crisis We've been bringing you live stream programming on almost a daily basis We hope you've enjoyed the more than 60 online programs today and many more planned in the coming weeks You can find the program schedule on the club's website Commonwealth club org as well as the video and podcast archives of all of the recent programs We also appreciate you considering donating to the club to help support this program if you wish to do so Please text the word donate two four one five three to nine 42 31 These donations are keeping the club going and enabling us to serve our community during this challenging time This program is part of the Commonwealth club's good Lindt series underwritten by the Bernard Osher foundation Now, it's my great pleasure to introduce today's guest Madeleine Albright's in 2001 when secretary Albright was leaving office as America's first female Secretary of State Interviewers asked her how she wished to be remembered. I Don't want to be remembered. She answered. I am still here and have much more I intend to do I want every stage of my life to be more exciting than the last and So it has been Secretary Albright has continued to write teach travel give speeches start a business fight for democracy help empower women Campaign for political candidates as well as spend more time with her grandchildren her new memoir entitled hell and other destinations written of course before the kovat pandemic Displays her unparalleled wit as well as her profound insights into public events past and present Today, we'll explore the challenges of our current predicament as well as here Albright's outlook on history and the post kovat world. So good afternoon secretary Albright Welcome to this fireside chat. I'm delighted to be with you. Thank you very much. Love being in San Francisco area no matter where and how virtually, or otherwise we hope to have you back again soon in person now and Tell us where are you joining from us from today? Well, I'm joining from my house in Washington and Georgetown where I've lived since 1968 And this is my working study as you can tell because it's messy And I have not been out except kind of to do laps around my garden for the last six weeks I'm not having much success because I'm an extrovert and I'm trying to learn to be an introvert and I'm not doing very well at that but I've been busy and I'm delighted to have the opportunity to talk about my my new book part of my virtual book tour and I assume you've been participating in zoom of Events and conversations and other activities. How are you finding that are you adapting to it is your Extroverted self being satisfied by some of that work Well, actually I've done a lot of it and I've enjoyed it But it doesn't work in terms of the extroverted thing Because you actually see people but you don't get the vibes I think one needs to have the vibes, but I've been I finished teaching at Georgetown the semester Overs. Ooh We even did a game simulation with my students who were just did a great job and I've done a lot of different meetings So I have done more zooming than I ever thought I would And and it's fun but it's also I think you've seen it's quite tiring because you have to concentrate on it and And you don't get the vibes frankly Yes, I'm finding that the day goes from 5 or 6 a.m. Until 11 p.m. Without a break when working at home So I know it's a day early, but happy birthday Well, thank you very much. Thank you this kind of a weird way to spend it, but I Think I'll tell you what, I'm finding more difficult than I thought a lot of the book is to kind of prove that I'm not old as you pointed out at the beginning and all of a sudden as a result of the Virus and I mean all of a sudden I have to be identified as elderly Which is was not my idea that I I've been trying to fight gravity. So It makes the birthday kind of more poignant if I may say so Well as a treasure in our country, I'm glad that you are sheltering carefully and safely Even if it means being identified as in a protected class So the pin of the day What is it? And what's the significance? and it's interesting because I had a different pin that I thought I was going to wear through this whole book tour, which was a demo and Because things have changed when I chose the title it actually had a lot to do with the most famous thing I ever said which was there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other but given what's going on and now The head I didn't focus on how germane the title was going to be in my book I do talk about the fact that I spent world war two in London with my parents all through the Blitz and my father was a Czechoslovak diplomat who went to work for the government in exile and his job was To talk over BBC and so I would listen to BBC I was a little girl and I'll never forget that the BBC broadcasts always began with a kettledrum that Played the first five notes of Beethoven's fifth Durham, which is Morse code for victory And so I thought that it made sense to wear the V pin for victory that's how apropos I There are people now Planting Covent Gardens instead of Victory Gardens and that theme I think is very important in our society right now I recall and you mentioned in the very early part of your book that your codename was when a secretary of state was Pathfinder and We certainly need some help finding our path in this current situation Well, there's an awful lot that is hard to figure out because it really is quite different In terms of the things that we all have dealt with them. I thought when I was Secretary of State, I was the last Secretary of State of the 20th century in the 1st of the 21st and President Clinton was always building bridges to the 21st century And I think that we thought it was going to kind of be an extra-large 20th century in terms of our various Relationships and the international organizations and how we operated and I think now we do have to find a path through Something that is quite different. I think that we're going to have to figure out all those Cliche terms the new normal or whatever, but I do think the things will be different Can you say a little bit more about in what ways and what directions will they be different? Well, I think that there are several aspects that are going on I've often talked about Megatrends and their downside. So what we've been living is through as a Megan and is globalization We've all benefited from it to some form or another I think But it does have a downside it's faceless and so people Don't know what their identity is and we've had an awful lot of people thinking they want to know who they are They don't want to be part of some faceless organization And I think it's great to want to know what your identity is But if my identity hates your identity It becomes very dangerous and nationalism and hyper nationalism and that's something that we're dealing with another mega trend is that Technology which again we've all benefited and I always love to talk about the Kenyan woman Farmer who no longer has to walk miles to pay her bills Because she can use her mobile phone and she can have a life Either with her family or starting a business or running four off. That's the positive the negative part is that every all opinion is Disaggregated everybody gets their news or their opinions from an echo chamber and it's very hard to tell What is going on? And those are the things that we have to deal with now? so for instance, the virus knows no borders and yet all of a sudden we're into borders and Nationalism when the only way that is going to be solved is by Dealing together and trying to solve the problem and understanding that You know, the people are talking Disconnecting I don't think we can disconnect if We're going to be able to operate in the 21st century. And we also need to understand technology better its pros and cons So those are the aspects and which meat leads me to think that I think our greatest. Hope are the young people who actually know how to operate in the technological world and who have a exciting view of the future even though I think it is a little iffy at the moment for them as I Talked about my grandchildren and I have three I've six grandchildren and three of them are in college And I know how much they were looking forward to being in college. And so it's a little disquieting. I think for everybody. I want to come back to that question of the interrupted education, but first, I want to talk a little bit about How why we didn't know or respond to predictions of A pandemic and weren't prepared So as you know There's a brain trust in this country and internationally You've talked in your book about the many policy studies and groups you've been involved with the Atlantic Council and various other groups and There were a number of groups in recent years that pulled experts together to think about Emerging diseases and how they could possibly create a pandemic and what preparedness We needed to do there was a World Health Organization panel report on this just last September a warning that we needed to engage in vaccine development and Develop, you know better fund our public health agencies and so on you've seen a lot of policy studies You've seen their ability to impact Government and policy what was going on this time? And why haven't we been able to pay attention? And what makes a policy study have impact and enable us to do better well, I do think that what by the way when I teach at Georgetown I teach a course about decision making and I try not to brainwash my students and I explain that we're in old country and we'd made decisions for a long time and there is a process and And I think that what happened and and the world doesn't come in four year segments according to our election And I think there was already a Disliked by the Trump administration of coming in after Obama there had been in a been an unpleasant Campaign. There was already a lot of criticism one of the things That I have found most interesting about our decision-making process is what's known as the transition And the transition is a period from the November election to January 21st The inauguration and I have been transitioned into and I've done the transitioning the latter is more fun but it is a absolutely crucial time because it is a time where Disagreements are kind of set aside because the crown jewels are being transferred. And from what I've heard It was a very incomplete and unpleasant transition and there was not that kind of turning things over I do know that the Obama administration did in fact have a plan And why it was disregarded because they had gone through some difficult times with Ebola And trying to figure out how to deal with with a pandemic and there were warnings about a pandemic So I think the hard part is and they're awful lot of stories now trying to figure out why all that was ignored And why people that had worked on that were asked to leave one of the interesting parts again from the government often? there are people who stay from one administration to another because they are the professionals and are not viewed as being To use the term partisan on this so I think that some very big mistakes were made I do think the Chinese have something to answer for In terms of what they did or didn't do I do think also that one has to know more about what the w-h-o did or didn't do but as far as I'm concerned there was kind of a blindness from the incoming administration to this and then denial and I think it's really is a problem and we are all paying for it now, so For leaving aside who wins the election Partisanship, etc it just sounds like we need a better transition process the next time and to make sure that all the current issues current views are incorporated and understood by the team coming in and I think that's something for Everyone interested in public policy to pay attention to it's sort of a little-known process people understand the political Process the elections etc. But there is a time there between November and January That's crucial. And now on China. What do you think the Chinese have to answer for? Well, I think that they Well, we don't know exactly what happened but but the bottom line is from what I have read they punished the people that talked about what was going on in Wuhan they Did not do what they could have been should have in terms of limiting travel and a variety of You know trying to figure it out and they did not and and again I I don't know all the facts so I know is you know what I've read And I think are the Trump administration has made it even more confusing By changing their mind every other day about what they knew and when they knew it But I think the Chinese that does need to be investigated But what we most have to figure out now is how to move forward on this And there are whole questions about whether we should break relations with China disconnect And not work with them anymore I hope that doesn't happen because just visualize if the Chinese were the ones to find a vaccine would we say? No, we don't want it And so there have to be issues that are rectified and my own sense about working with China I can't tell you how many meetings you were talking about task forces and meetings that I've done how many have to do with China? You know the rising power and how do we deal with it? And and I think that the art of diplomacy and statecraft is being able to have relationships with even those we disagree with Try to figure out where we can cooperate and compete where we have to And not decide that we're not going to having to do with them. We know the issues of our supply chains And the fact also that the Chinese as the US has been withdrawing from the world scene The Chinese are filling the vacuum So I think it is counterproductive to decide that we are not going to deal with them. We need to figure out Where we cooperate and where we compete There are a lot of aspects of global cooperation in this current situation I mean the Chinese did share the genetic code for the viruses and so on and there have been Exchange of data and other cooperation. Some people are seeing this as a model for other difficult areas non-proliferation Terrorism human rights, etc Do you see positive aspects of the cooperation that the pandemic has forced and how they might enable? Progress in other areas. Well, I do think first of all that the virus knows no borders And then also are issues. You don't have to be a genius to know that there's certain issues that require international cooperation nuclear proliferation climate change various health policies and aspects of the movement of people's and it just requires cooperate and And I think I hope that that is something that is followed in a variety of ways It doesn't mean we have to agree about everything I can tell you. It's very interesting to be a diplomat because you go to any country and if you are a secretary of state that actually works with the people in the State Department and is briefed and prepared for meetings You have an objective in going to the country and you have a set of things that you want to talk about now You start out always in a very friendly way and you try to find the things you agree on and then I had a trick I Would say I have come a long way so I must be frank and then I would talk about the human rights situation or What was going on in Tibet? And then the Chinese Foreign Minister we're talking about Taiwan, but the bottom line is that Diplomacy is the language that you need to be able to talk to those with whom you agree and disagree? so I think that the next phase again if you look at the Trans-border aspect of the problems we have to deal with the Chinese and I think then I would prefer to deal with them often within a larger setting so that Whether they can work with us at the United Nations or to be more part of some of the issues that are happening In Asia, I am troubled by what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea they are threatening navigational rights, and I'm very worried about an accident in terms of some ship of Chinese ship hitting a Fisherman fishing boat or something and whether we have lines that are open that can deal with these kinds of issues It would be very dangerous If we had a cold war with the Chinese Coming back to the u.s. Situation for a second you have experienced government in every way you're a real authority on the way the US government works a number of people including Margaret Hamburg Harvey Fineberg have called for a single Point of you know control or contact for the pandemic management in the US government a pandemic czar if you will well and they've mentioned people like former secretaries of HHS former Members of Congress even ash Carter was mentioned once what do you think of this idea? Do we need a national czar or coordinator? Other than the vice president to deal with the pandemic crisis in this country. I think it would be very useful because There's accountability and responsibility. But if there is such a person as our or czarina That it would be an understanding that it takes a lot of parts of the US government to be a part of this obviously Health and Human Services, but it is a national security issue It is a commercial issue And so if the person is empowered to be the one that gathers the people In the White House in order to follow this very carefully then I think that's important the other part about our government and I feel strongly about this is What makes it so interesting for me the most interesting part of our government our executive legislative relations? And so there has to be a way that the White House deals with respect with members of Congress I've been on both ends of this I worked on Capitol Hill for Senator muskie and then I came and worked in the Carter White House doing congressional relations So it was interesting to see how things went back and forth but I do think that it's important to be able to have that relationship and then obviously also a judicial branch and so The interaction of our government is important and understanding the Constitution So and those are the things that seem to be missed the moment, by the way The course I teach I say foreign policy is just trying to get some come to do what you want. That's all it is So what are the tools and my course is called the national security toolbox and we are the most powerful country in the world But they're not a lot of tools but all the tools in order to really work need to be activated and worked on with the Congress and so that if there is a Czars arena that is an important part and then the really hard part especially in this administration Is somebody who can go into the president and say these are the facts? And if you want to make sure that people aren't dying These are the facts and believe me. It is not easy to go into the Oval Office and talk to the president There's so much history in the Oval Office. I had a lot of you know, I would go in and read President Clinton and Sometimes I'd get irritated because he'd be doing a crossword puzzle as I was talking to him but he had the Capability having done a lot of reading about what we are about to do and what foreign leader we were gonna see So he always had been listening and asked the right questions But it's not simple to go in there and tell the President of the United States. You've got these facts wrong You mentioned at the beginning what's lost when we're operating remotely and The way that government operates and really any organization a lot happens outside of formal meetings Chatting in the hallway at the proverbial water cooler the walk in the woods in International meetings and so on. What do you think is lost and how long can we go on in a mode where we're not? Meeting face-to-face. I Think a lot is lost by the way, and in those personal relations is interesting I was just at we couldn't have a hearing on this on Capitol Hill Because it was moat and so I did a briefing with the House Foreign Affairs Committee last week on democracy and authoritarianism It was interesting to the extent. I mean, there are a lot of people that I know from very parts of my life And there it's possible to kind of have a less formal Interaction, but it's different than if you're kind of walking down the hall or you come and see them. I do think that I'm troubled by what the long-term effect of this kind of sequestration You know takes place but I think if it takes a lot longer we will develop other ways of Trying to figure out how to have the relationships Social distancing doesn't mean a you know personal distancing in terms of relationships You can always pick up the phone So I was going to ask you about how the government is working in this Period and you've talked about doing a remote briefing for a house committee Have you do you have any other sense of how government is operating right now? well, I think not at the best I have to say because It's very so much of government is based on Trying to see the other person's side and to look at compromise and at the moment what troubles me? Very deeply about the current Way the atmosphere is that there is a premium on Putting down your opponent and not really listening to what he or she has to say When you actually can learn something from people with whom you disagree and so I don't think things are going very well. I do think it's kind of a Zero-sum instead of trying to figure out how to find some kind of a compromise So I am worried about this going on on the other hand I think we have to be aware of the fact that as a result of the things that we started Talking about why it took so long and what the issues were we do have to worry about the number of people that are dying and that in fact the health of the country the health of our people is something that is obviously Of paramount importance which goes back to science and facts and and what the policies are so the subject on which you testified which is democracy and Authoritarianism was the topic of your book fascism a warning which was a very striking book and Caused a lot of people to pay attention and think about that subject. That is the rise of authoritarianism or even totalitarianism globally What did you say in your testimony? And how do you think things are going? Do you see that trend continuing to deepen worldwide? Well, I do and it goes back to the when I was talking about Trends and their downside. I think what we're seeing Is that the rise of this hyper nationalism does create divisions and just to go back? When I decided to write my book on fascism, I went to see the origin of it and it started with Mussolini in Italy after World War one where the Italians felt that they had not their role in world war one when they fought with the Allies was not Respected there were economic problems Mussolini was somebody that was an outsider who came in who was a very good speaker could motivate people And what happened? Was he began to identify with one group of people at the expense of another? And then Hitler picked that up and went way beyond anything in terms of not only dividing society but blaming the group that he didn't like of being the problem the whole problem In terms of its scapegoat for everything now the best quote in that book came from Mussolini Which it he said if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time nobody notices And so I've been saying there's a lot of feather plucking going on right now and by the way, you can't say those two words too quickly together, but really Very worrisome in terms of steps and we've seen it in Europe what I did in that book and I've talked about a little bit more in this new one is Happen in Europe, so can you find somebody like Viktor Orban in Hungary? Whom I actually met in the 80s When he was everybody's favorite dissident and by the way, he's been attacking George Soros George Soros paid for his education At Oxford so and anyway, he has taken advantage of some of the problems in Hungary the fact that immigrants have come in and and also the virus in order all of a sudden to Have what? He calls in a liberal democracy if there ever was an oxymoron is putting two words like that together The poles are doing things like that. Also. I'm very worried about what's happened in Turkey or in the Philippines and so there are those leaders that are taking advantage of The fact that there are problems to divide the people even more and and I am worried that some of that There is an attempt to divide our society and and I think what I did in In the fascism of fascism is not an ideology It's a process for gaining power and it's when you have a leader who thinks he's above the law Where the freedom of the press a free press is the basis of democracy? And if all of a sudden the press is seen as the enemy of the people That is a terrible aspect of it. And then the scapegoating part So I am what which is why I wrote the book of warning because one has to be careful about the divisions that have taken place so we in this country are accepting a lot more government authority at the moment and Glad of it in many cases and we're providing information Ranging from our location to our body temperature, etc what do you think of this in terms of the Trends in the u.s. The ability to preserve civil rights democracy, etc Is this troubling at all? Well, I have to say so I am gonna sound like professor Albright here, but basically there the way that not societies were created was with a social contract and basically people gave up some of their individual rights to a government that then had the responsibility of Providing a series of social services and worrying about the people and in exchange the people Were good citizens and voted and were interested in what was going on I have been troubled that the social contract Has been breaking down and some of it does have to do with technology and the loss of jobs and a variety of things That were going on at the beginning of the century and the fear factor about terrorists and any number of different Aspects what is interesting and you already stated it is in order to deal with the pandemic The central government does have to have some power That if every and we particularly have an interesting Constitution with the powers of the states but there are certain things that the federal government needs to be responsible for and The loss of some of Democracy, there is something that I think is necessary on the other hand. There has to be a method For the voice of the people to be heard and we are about to be able to be heard in our elections And I think that democracy is not a spectator sport and I think that we have to understand how the electoral system works here how important it is to have access To the voting system the states run a lot of it and it makes it necessary for everybody to understand how the political System operates and our role in it, but you do need we've been criticizing the central government for not having had a supply Ventilators or masks and there have been a lot of questions about where they come from So I think our system in many ways needs work, but not by people that want to destroy the system In order to create some kind of weird Society But in fact one that mends some of the problems and recognizes the importance of that social contract so while we're sheltering we should be paying even more attention to our governmental bodies how they're working and our vote to vote and Voting should be made as accessible as possible. I think I agree with you There's a special need at this time to pay attention to the lovers of our democracy Let's talk about students you've finished the semester teaching via zoom I'm on the board of my undergraduate college. So we talk about this all the time. Will there be a fall semester? What are students missing? By not being able to physically be present What do you think the impact will be will this be a shaping experience for the college and graduate school aged population? What will they take away from this how will this impact their lives? Well, they will never forget this. There's no question, especially seniors who are missing their graduation or those that were prepared to step into jobs that Either don't exist or it have to be done virtually and so they are on the front lines of this in many different ways What I found interesting with my students and I do teach this Decision-making course and one of the things that's been their favorite thing has been a roleplay simulation Which I have done in the past over a weekend and it's very Something that is intensive I have I asked them to prepare like six weeks ahead of time There's some people who play Than are the main decision-making body of the National Security Council the principal's committee then I have a group that played the United Nations Security Council and then I have foreigners that are Representing whatever country we're dealing with. So what had they had prepared to do was about Venezuela And I always create some crisis towards the end that they have to deal with it they weren't prepared for so what I did was to say that an American ship was captured by the Venezuelans and it was a ship that was delivering humanitarian assistance and all of this was done remotely And they - and again, it's a cliche They manage take a crisis and turn it into an opportunity and they figured out how to deal with the ship issue But then they began to look at what were the relationships in Venezuela? how did they relate to the Colombians and the Cubans and the refugees and so they made the best of it and I think in many ways the students that generation is most prepared of anybody to deal with technology the truth is we've been criticizing them for being online all the time and not Being social enough or not understanding privacy in many ways. They are more prepared for this And so, you know, I'm often asked if I'm an optimist or a pessimist I'm an optimist who worries a lot, but I'm an optimist because of that generation And so I do think they're in a hard spot I think as of right now most of them don't know if there's going to be school in the fall And they have to try to figure it out I think it's a it's and I have I have six grandchildren three of whom are college age And I know they loved being in college just because it's more than just going to class and they they know they're missing Something but I also think that in many ways they can be the ones that will with our help lead us out of this so let's go to the title of your book for a second the there's a special place in hell and this is a tough question because as you know, there's a An accusation about Joe Biden at this point with regard to his behavior towards a former Senate aide How do you react to this situation? where we may Need a change in our leadership But there is this this concern well, I do think that one of the issues is that I believe that when women make accusations we need to believe them and let them speak out But I also do think that there needs to be a way of figuring out what is true and not true I happen to know I've known Joe Biden for a very long time from the time that he was a senator I think he is somebody I happen to think that I believe him I do think it's very good that he's decided that he wants to have a woman vice president which I think by the way, I back in all the various things I've done I When Walter Mondale chose Geraldine Ferraro to be his vice presidential candidate was the first time and I was her Foreign policy advisors so we spent a lot of time with each other and and this is where some of my statements about women come from that were so hard on each other very judgmental and and we sometimes project our sense of inadequacy on another woman and I remember traveling with her and a Woman came up and said, how can she deal with the Russian? I can't deal with the Russian Well, nobody was asking that woman to do that. And and I think that we're not supportive enough of each other So it does mean listening to those feel that they have been sexually harassed or misunderstood but I think it's also very important to Figure out what the truth really is and to make judgments about what you know about the people involved. I Apologized when I seemed to look at my lap I have the questions coming in from the audience on an iPad and I'm going to ask a few of those now One person wants to know say thank you for being a positive role model for young women. What's your advice for young women today? well, I I think the following thing which is that first of all, we need to I need To know the following thing that women do have to work harder than men. There's no question This is going to irritate some of the men that are listening. There's plenty of room in the world for mediocre men There's no room for mediocre women and women have to work very hard. I also think that it is very important To know you're not going to be able to play your whole life out Ahead of time. I think you need to know what Makes you would make you a useful member of society. What are you interested in? Are you somebody that will work hard that will be dependable? That will know how to do something that women have to do is to multitask and to understand that you are better off if there's more than one woman in the room, but I think the main thing is to Understand that it's very hard to plan your whole life out if anybody had told me How my life developed I would have said no way. I mean, I was somebody that went to a women's college I wanted to be a journalist and I Worked on a small paper while my husband was in the army and then we moved back to Chicago where he worked on a newspaper And we're sitting with his managing editor and he looks at me he says so what are you gonna do, honey? And I said, I'm gonna work on a newspaper and he said I don't think so You can't work on the same paper as your husband and even though there were three other papers in Chicago at the time And he said and you wouldn't want to compete with your husband. So go find something else to do What I can tell you and I won't go through the whole story. I found something in my papers that I wrote. I had twins early and I wanted to go back to school and I and I Wrote this little essay that said I can't believe it. I'm obsolete. I don't know what I'm going to do and so And it all turned out somewhat differently But I really do think we need to take advantage of the fact that our life comes in segments due to biology and to be able to Do what? I mean for me I always wanted to do something as you quoted in the beginning something interesting and to have a curiosity and and to give it my all and To be dependable and then also not think that certain things were beneath me when I was a staffer I made a lot of coffee in Xerox tan And I know that when I was made Secretary of State, by the way when my name came up to be Secretary of State Somebody said well a woman can't be Secretary of State because Arab leaders won't deal with a woman Well that went away and what it turned out I had less trouble with foreign leaders because they knew that I Represented the United States than I did with the men in our own government who knew me too long as a Staffer or somebody who cooked I'd had them over for dinner or you know And they thought how did she get to be Secretary of State? So the main thing that I think is women there's no point in being angry The point is to do work and recognize that you have to work harder and that and you have to speak up and Finally, my mantra is in meetings. You have to interrupt Because if you raise your hand then by the time they get to you what you're going to say is not germane and that there's not a woman that I've ever talked to who Hasn't had this feeling of you want to say something in a meeting and you think well I won't say it cuz it'll sound stupid and then some man says it and everybody thinks it's brilliant and you're mad at yourself so I invented the idea that Made it up active listening if you're listening to in order to interrupt You have to know what you're gonna say and you have to have a strong voice and do it and when I went to teaching I told my students because I co ed classes. Nobody could raise their hands everybody had to interrupt my classes were a bit of a zoo, but I do think that it's very important to Know what you're gonna say and it's much better if there's another woman in the room to support what you said. I Think actually the American diplomacy has played a good role in certain periods by sending women into areas of the world where women don't hold as high-level or responsible positions and then the country That we're dealing with has to deal with us with women and it essentially shows that it forces the issue and it shows that women have to be dealt with and perhaps should have More high-level positions in those countries as well By the way, you know What's interesting since we started talking about the pandemic there the countries that are run by women? Currently have done better dealing with the pandemic in Ceylon and Germany and Then Denmark and Norway and Iceland Taiwan very interesting and bodies that women have I think in terms of month being able to multitask Because we have peripheral vision Knowing that it is better to take care of people and that you don't want your children Pitted against each other you want people to work together? It's kind of interesting to think about the fact and and by the way the u.s Also always wants to be number one and everything There are countries that have had women presidents and prime ministers and we're the ones that are kind of behind you loose So sounds like a great topic for a paper At the graduate level or or some research on how women lead countries have done so You told a number of personal stories in your book. In fact in some ways It could be called Madeleine Albright uncensored because there are a number of wonderful stories there For instance the requirement for women to be photographed at Wellesley I don't know if you want to repeat any of these but again tremendously witty and and Observant in pointing out some of these experiences Well, the thing that happened at Wellesley when we got there we all had to have our posture pictures taken and You know that you weren't fully dressed for that and if you didn't have a good posture you had to have Classes and exercise and we all kind of wondered what had ever happened to the posture pictures Until we found out that they were in default at Yale. So it was a little bit embarrassing but I have some really crazy stories and some of the that are fun in terms of how I had People not have a clue who I am and think that I'm somebody else And on an airplane and this is a story where I was flying on a plane That was very fancy and had a bar and just as I'd just in front of the bathroom So I'm going to the bathroom and all of a sudden there are these men there who are saying kind of looking at me and one kneels down and he says can you bless me and ice and And he said please bless me and he put his head right so that I could bless him I then figured out he thought I was Mother Teresa And so I didn't go to the bathroom that way anymore or somebody who thought I was Margaret Thatcher And I said, I'm not and this man said yes you are and I said, I'm sorry I'm not and he said if you don't want to tell me you're Margaret Thatcher, that's fine But I know you are or my very best moment at Heathrow Airport, which many people have gone through and is pretty tough I am the one that's picked out in order to Take everything out of my suitcase and I'm on the floor and people are waiting him and I never do this But I finally said excuse me, but do you know who I am and the guy doing this said no But we have a doctor who can help you figure it out Whisper not to laugh. So I've had a lot of funny stories Also some very poignant stories about finding the letter from or the diary from your grandmother and I Which you actually include some of as an appendix in your book. Could you tell us that story? Yes, and I'll tell you it's it takes a little while. What happened was that? I didn't know by the way I was raised a Catholic married an Episcopalian and found that I was Jewish so I can have my own spiritual discussions and One of the things was that What happened was we spent the war in England? Then we went back to Czechoslovakia And I had I was two when we left and so well, I've had seen pictures of myself with my grandmother. I ever remember having real contact And and when we got back, there was no family in Czechoslovakia And we came to the United States is very much of a nuclear family so what happened was my father died and he had a lot of different papers and things and when my mother moved to Washington She brought everything with her and when she died all of a sudden everything ended up in my garage And I was trying to figure out what all these things were and then what happened was I go into a public Life and I have security and they kind of move into my house at my house and garage and they said we've got to get rid of these boxes you've got to put them somewhere so I found a storage place and we put everything there and then something came up in terms of my papers gently and my father had been Working on a book and I thought I should go at least look at stuff and as I'm there I find And amidst all these papers an envelope when all been manila envelope and when I open it there's a diary in it and I start looking at it and it was written in Czech and it was letters it was done in the form of letters to my mother from her mother and it kind of Blew there's no way to describe it in terms of how I felt about it And and then I felt I you know, my mother had never talked about it And how she must have felt and how she even got it at a certain stage I think I I can track it a little bit more now but it was a diary that began in 1942 and it doesn't have a lot in it in terms of because she describes her life in this little town where she lived and a lot of it was very mundane in terms of her daily activities of Going shopping or washing her hair? and she'd always say and how his little mud linka and very, you know, We miss her and and then she said in one In all of a sudden people are talking about Aryans and non-aryans she said she'd never heard that term before or that there were places that Jews were not able to shop or that all of a sudden there was an order that people had to give their warm clothes to the Nazi soldiers and they Kind of blew my mind the whole thing, and I thought of it as kind of a message in a bottle that Was a message from the past with some very deep insights and and a sense of hope about seeing each other all again and And I'm very glad I found it But it was not easy to kind of go through and and recognize the suffering That my relatives have gone through either When I found out about being Jewish I was just as I was starting to be Secretary of State and I couldn't go and put the story together so my brother and sister went to Czechoslovakia at the time and Began to put the story together And then we've done more research and it turns out the 26 members of my family died in concentration Camps and so two summers ago now three summers ago. I took my children and grandchildren To Prague and then to Terezin in order to show them What was our past? And you were able to put a plaque there I think in the village Yeah, I know in Terezin stott, which is one of the most disc all concentration camps are disgusting But this was portrayed as a spa that they thought that Check was check Jews would want to go to and it was kind of a villagey place And they did have an orchestra and a variety of things, but then they shipped people off to other Concentration camps and they also did have some terrible things that happen to Terezin itself I'm so sorry That must have been a difficult experience to go through the discovery and finding out what happened But I'm glad I found the diary I really and that's the message in the bottle part about it so The single most important thing you feel that you've done since leaving office Well, I think There is not one single thing because the purpose of writing this book in many ways was showing how the things I do go together and how one thing informs another And I've talked about teaching I love doing that but I love doing things that have to do with democracy I was recently at a dinner and I was asked to describe myself in six words, and I said a worried optimist a problem-solver and a grateful American and they go together and and I think The motivating factor of my life whether I knew it or not because you asked that earlier is to pay back I am a grateful American And my as I've said large numbers of my family died my father We left Czechoslovakia a second time when the Communists took over and I kind of wonder what it would have been like had he not managed to get us out of there and so coming to America has been the dispositive aspect of my life and and So and the things that I do kind of come from that and the amount of time I spend on democracy through the National Democratic Institute and Understanding that in order to make a difference in a country We need to work on helping them on a political system and an economic system because democracy has to deliver People want to vote and eat and try to figure out how to operate And even this was before the pandemic and how not to let nationalism morph into Fascism and Hatred even more so that's my main thing. And by the way, I always love to talk about this, which is that my favorite activities is to give Naturalization certificates in ceremonies and the first time I did it was July 4th 2000 at Monticello I figured since I had Thomas Jefferson's job. I could actually do that and so I am giving this man his naturalization certificate and he walks away and I hear him say can you believe I'm a refugee and I just got my Naturalization certificate from the Secretary of State and I go up to him and I say can you believe that a refugee is? Secretary of State and so I am grateful and I now am concerned about the fact that the Statue of Liberty is weeping given some of our policies when most of the people in this country came in some form or another from some other country that Leads us to another audience question, which is if you disagree with American foreign policy Positions, how can a citizen best try to affect the outcome? Well, I think that first of all by understanding what the policy is about where it comes from and then I Think being vocal about what you disagree with and then take steps That would lead to a change And I think it's from my perspective. I think it's Sometimes good to be an individual voice But it's good to find people that you can work with to to Make your point-of-view clear but the main thing is to vote that is the process and and and I'm and I think now that there's all the influence of hacking and And a variety of aspects of the social media and lack of a way To make sure that things work It's the numbers that are going to make the difference in terms of making sure that the the voice is the vote but it also requires and I feel very strongly about this that one has to call out what one sees if People think they're above the law I think also and and this is not always easy I had my to-do list when I was talking about my fascism book was to talk to people with whom you disagree I decided that I don't like the word tolerance. That's to put up with tolerate I think we need to respect other people's views and try to figure out Where they're coming from and then have a discussion about can you? Find some way to work together and then I really do think seeing what how to work with the next generation But I think some of us that are not as adept at the new Technology need to work with the younger Generation and need to figure out how to make sure that we know what's going on and to question I don't happen to I'm not big on violent demonstrations but I do think that it's very important to speak out and to try to find a way in a democratic way to get your views across and tell the truth So I've been thinking once we are able to be around other people again There are greetings that we do and in the u.s A handshake is the typical greeting different cultures around the world greet each other in different ways What are you thinking? How are you? Thinking you're going to be greeting people once sheltering is over. I am a hugger And and one of the things by the way, you'll get a laugh out of this. I invented the art of Diplomatic kissing so what happened when I came in you can't visualize Former secretaries doing this of going to a country and him, you know having an embrace. So more complicated than meets the eye because in Latin America some people kiss on the right cheek and some on the left cheek and Two or three times and then bump noses and then the French kiss twice and the Dutch kiss three times and then there was yes, sir are if I have just the thought of it, right so Anyway, I did there were in fact embraces and And I and I don't know how it's gonna work. I've tried even before we were all sequestered to do the elbow bum but I think we are going to have to figure out some other way to to make clear our Respect for the people that were meeting. I think the Japanese bow is good Anything I haven't asked you that you would like to say to our audience Well, I think that first of all thank you for all the questions and from the audience questions I think we are in a very peculiar time and it's going to be very important for us To try to sort out what we do think and not necessarily to agree on everything but to understand that Democracy is fragile And at the same time it's resilience. And I think we have to think about how to use the resilience The optimism and the desire to work together and that There's no one individual that can solve problems. I think that we have to work together And it's not going to be easy. But the worst part I think is if people decide that there's nothing to be done I am NOT passive and one has to be active and activist on behalf of causes that are Ones that open up society and respect Each other but it's not it not simple and I think the hard part At the moment is this is all lasting longer than we thought I think we all kind of figured that at some stage you know this would be over fairly quickly and Patience is not my virtue. And so I think we have to sort out How we proceed through this? And what is the appropriate behavior for people that are proud of living in a democracy? So thank you for the passion expertise and good humor with which you've done all that you've done you've contributed so much over the decades in your book you talk about Madeline's clubs all the various groups you Belong to and have assembled from the Aspen Institute Brookings counts CFR Carnegie Endowment your various working groups your company and so on in a slightly different way We are very happy to be the Commonwealth Club to be one of your clubs We are very much your fans and had the great honor of honoring you with our distinguished Citizen Award last year We miss seeing you in person But we're so grateful to you for joining us from Washington today for this Commonwealth Club program Stay well the shelter successfully I hope there's some diversion to Alleviate the isolation there. And again, thank you so much secretary Albright Well, thank you for inviting me and I've always felt very welcome And anytime you want me I'm there. And and I think it's a great club in a great city and and I think it's wonderful and I am always delighted to be invited and to have a Good conversation. Thank you very much. We'll ask you frequently We want to remind everyone watching that you can get a copy of secretary Albright's book Unfortunately, not physically at the Commonwealth Club today It's called hell and other destinations, but you can get it at your local bookstore or by visiting Barnes and noble.com This program has been part of the club's good lit series, which is underwritten by the Bernard Osher foundation we're thankful to all of our viewers online as I noted earlier the club will continue to provide live stream programming in the days ahead Please visit us regularly at Commonwealth Club org to learn more or to donate I'm Gloria Duffy. Now this online program of the Commonwealth Club is adjourned. Thank You thank you so much